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Not a very big turn out for the party weekend but six of us braved the not so good weather for a trip down Rowten.
Rich had come up with the idea of doing both routes ie: the Eyehole and the Gully Route, so after getting kitted up and somebody forgetting his oversuit (namely moi)
It was a big thangs to Alex for a loan of his coat to help fend the cold off, once up on the Turbury Road we soaked the ropes in the big puddle, after breaking the ice.
Then we were ready for the off, Rich going in the Gulley Route and Myself taking the Eyehole Route, as my team had got the easiest rigging we soon found ourselves at the bottom of the big pitch.
As we had the rope for the rest of the cave, we carried on and rigged to the bottom, then after a quick look at the dive lines and a very impressive waterfall we turned round and started to make our way out. Meeting up with Rich's group at the top of the last pitch, so after exchanging pleasantries we carried on out leaving them to carry on to the bottom. Also the plan on the way out was to swop over on the two exit routes, which meant we got to go out a very impressive and slightly damp Gulley Route, thus leaving the others to exit via the Eyehole Route
Trip time 4hrs
Team 1 Rich Rae, Emma Beecroft, Pete James
Team 2 Alex Wallman, Susan Blackburn, Keith Mason

For the sake of accuracy in this report I think the trip time for Susan and myself was more like 5+ hours, I volunteered to derig and didn't realise how many maillons and miles of rope we had to drag out of the cave. Susan coped very well with a bag which probably weighed as much as she did. I hate maillons, especially on the cold pitches near the surface where my fingers froze, I intend to ask the committee for some money to replace the club stock with krabs. (yes I know maillons have their uses and I think we should keep some for masochists.!)

Another great trip thanks Keigh and the rest of the teams.

Got to agree with you Alex Re maillons, yes they do have there place......it's in the Cellar under lock and key were they should stay.

PS if you propose the krabs then i'll second it

I agree also with the one exception a maillon can be freed with an 8mm spanner if it refuses to open where a stuck krab does not

What we need is a cross between the two a crab where the lock on the gate is mailon shaped for spanners. (I am off to the patent office now)

alexw wrote:

I intend to ask the committee for some money to replace the club stock

And while you're at it can you ask them if it's time to retire some of that rope?!

Gully route was indeed superb; water levels were perfect - enough to be exciting with a good amount of spray and noise to add to the atmosphere.

alexr wrote:

I agree also with the one exception a maillon can be freed with an 8mm spanner if it refuses to open where a stuck krab does not

What we need is a cross between the two a crab where the lock on the gate is mailon shaped for spanners. (I am off to the patent office now)

On a weight for strength basis a maillon wins over a screw-gate carabiner.

There is already a brand of krabs with a hex shaped screw gate
Also you need a 13mm spanner for standard 7mm maillons

And a 13 mm spanner is much better at bashing open stuck crab's than an 8mm! maybe not as good as a peg hammer though

clarkm wrote:

On a weight for strength basis a maillon wins over a screw-gate carabiner.

Yes but why go for heavy and RSI from screwing and unscrewing them. After all if a piece of equipment is strong enough for the job then extra strength is just wasted isn't it?

col wrote:

clarkm wrote:

On a weight for strength basis a maillon wins over a screw-gate carabiner.

Yes but why go for heavy and RSI from screwing and unscrewing them. After all if a piece of equipment is strong enough for the job then extra strength is just wasted isn't it?

You still have to screw and un-screw a screwgate carabiner. As for breaking strength, I've witnessed the results of a carabiner failing for a falling climber and in that example it clearly wasn't strong enough! Don't forget the breaking strength under ideal loading conditions isn't the same as might be encountered in a real situation.

Safety is a balance between likelihood of something happening and the consequences. I think that struggling with maillons could increase the chance of an accident. Crabs reduce the chance but would still have been well able to handle the consequences. When I was derigging on Saturday at one point, after fighting with a series of very stiff maillons, I was conscious that I was getting cold and tired. Things that were easy to do on the lower pitches were quite a struggle as I got nearer the top and my energy was running out. These are conditions that could have caused me to have an accident. There was no point on my way out when I was above any of my gear and any fall would have been far less than a FF1, my main worry was getting hung up and unable to move. Carabiners would have been a lot easier; I would have been moving faster and out sooner. At one point I was considering leaving the gear in the cave and coming back for it the next day.

I use krabs for both personal caving and work. If I was going to take a fall which resulted in a krab failing in a caving situation then I would seriosly look at my rigging. After all we should be rigging not to take large falls and rigging so an anchor failure would not be fatal.
I am in several clubs (I collect them ) and they all use krabs
I'm with you Alex with the leave the rope behind. I started it in France when I left Phil Bakers rope in the Silence. I personally think it's the way forward.

My view as a yorkshireman is.

if i drop a mailion I'll mourn my two quid for and hour, if i drop a Krab I'll mourn it for a week!

The issue here is how do we stop club Crabs going walkabout, the maillons are there for any member to use and are less likely to dissapear - we have had club crabs previously which have gone missing, even when marked up. I have equally seen people (no names mentioned) struggle to open crabs when de rigging.
I love to use crabs for rigging personally and hope we can find a way of keeping some club Crabs.

i agree with Stuart most of us have our own caving kit in wich we use crabs ( i do ) the problem is if the club buys them how quick will they go missing ? is it worth getting 12 to start with and seeing how long they last ?

Thats not a bad suggestion Paul, try a dozen and see how long they last.
Maybe paint them lurid pink too.

maillons are great.

much cheaper, more campact, better able to withstand multiple directional loading such as on caving traverses, and easier to undo when tight/frozen/muddy (if you left your spanner at home you can use a second maillon as a spanner which you can't do on a krab).

krabs are getting lighter so they're evenly matched there. though lighter maillons are available so you could get those and win the weight contest if you were fussy, though the water in your socks will be more than the difference.

frankly i don't believe there is a safety aspect regarding derigging - people should be able to derig a modest yorkshire sport route without feeling maillons are jeopardising safety. if there are unusual circumstances then as a caver i'd much rather my partner left the gear in the cave than risked having an accident. if the maillons are overly stiff that's a care and maintenance issue and i'd say people should look after them just like they shouldn't be acquiring club krabs.

and for the sake of argument why are people saying a round screwgate barrel is easier to undo than a hexagonal maillon barrel? also bolts are 13mm across flats, think a 7mm maillon is actually 12mm across flats though a 13mm spanner does work.

am i behind the times in not taking up the krabs? i have rigged on them before (and derrigged) and i've got to say i wasn't blown away and i still don't see what the fuss is about. maillons are fine so why not keep them? i'm all for lighter rope, thinner suits, smaller lamps, but it seems here that we are contemplating swapping to something that is twice the price that is bulkier and without the ability to undo when stuck!

"people should be able to derig a modest yorkshire sport route "

OY! It might me a "modest yorkshire sport route" to you, it was a bloody epic for me!".

The main problem for me was the sheer number of turns it takes to undo a maillon and the same again to fasten it enough so it doesn't get lost. Multiplied by 30odd and my little fat fingers got very tired especially near the top when it was freezing. The only time I have has difficulty opening a crab is when it has been tightened under load, I have enough weight to re-load it to allow it to be undone.
I already have a few crabs and I intend to buy another ten and look after them.
You made a good point regards looking after maillons, I will give the club stock a good clean and oil next time I am in Yorkshire, and find a spanner to keep in my bag.

iwalker wrote:

also bolts are 13mm across flats, think a 7mm maillon is actually 12mm across flats though a 13mm spanner does work.

I agree.

iwalker wrote:

maillons are great

I've been keeping out of this so far, despite having quite strong views on the subject. However, I've finally given in.

For club use, I have to say that I agree completely with Ian. Granted krabs have some advantages (but not enough, interestingly, for me personally to be willing to swap from maillons to krabs). However as far as I am concerned, there is one very important reason why clubs should stick to maillons.

A standard maillon is made of steel. Steel is pretty much resistant to internal damage from bangs, is very unlikely to be worn much the passage of muddy ropes and, assuming minimal maintenance, will pretty much last a lifetime. Obviously some get lost, and a few get bent through not having been done up, but taking these things into account, a maillon bought today for about £2.70 will probably give 10+ years of reliable service and, most importantly for a club, the Tackle Officer can still be sure it is going to be able to do its job.

A krab, on the other hand, is generally made of a very light alloy (I assume nobody's suggesting buying steel krabs). This is much more prone to damage through normal use in a cave and, in the event of being dropped down a pitch, should almost certainly be retired immediately if part of club kit. Quite apart from the cost, therefore, of replacing missing ones, any club Tackle Officer really ought to be reckoning on replacing the entire lot of krabs every couple of years. That is simply the only way you can reasonably claim to be providing gear that is known to be safe.

If you're anything like me, you despise the 'compensation culture' of modern Britain, but whether we like it or not, as a club we are potentially open to claims made against us by dead or injured cavers' relatives. This is why we have insurance. However, no insurance policy will cover you if you do something you know, or could reasonably have been expected to know, is negligent. Whether we like it or not, providing club gear that is being used well outside manufacturers' recommendations is simply not an option.

For this reason I don't believe we can justify using krabs over anything like the same sort of period as maillons. This means that the cost to the club of going down the route of replacing all our maillons with krabs is not just the initial outlay of about £600 (100 krabs), but actually a further £300 in each and every subsequent year to keep the krabs in a suitable condition for a club to be able to include them in its tackle store. This compares against £27 to keep the stock of 100 maillons complete every year.

What an individual chooses to do (or lend to other individuals) is entirely up to them. However, what a club does is ... or should be ... a very different matter.

richardrae wrote:

And while you're at it can you ask them if it's time to retire some of that rope?!

Absolutely. The current rope is already 6 months outside any manufacturer's recommendations. See my comments above about the compensation culture.

Given the choice between an alloy krab and steel maillon, both of unknown history (i.e. a club one), I would always choose the latter.

'Strength' is more complicated than simply the rated strength. I don’t claim to be a metallurgist, but even civil engineers know that the load required to produce failure in an Aluminium alloy – unlike steel - is significantly reduced by fatigue* (i.e. cyclic loading). Anyone who has stood at a pitch head and watched someone prussiking will be surprised by the repeated deflection exhibited by a karabiner as the caver 'bounces' up the pitch.

The reason for this is that a maillon is an inherently stronger shape: By screwing up the gate on a maillon, you create a shape which allows the shear force to 'flow' around it. A karabiner on the other hand is effectively a cantilever until the pin connects with the hook – this requires the top and bottom to deflect. As a prussiking caver is a variable load, this deflection varies i.e. fatigue.

* Famous example: de Havilland Comet